Did Jesus exist before creation? Did the Holy Spirit exist before creation?
Jesus existed in God's plan, Jesus is the beginning of creation Rev. 3:14 and by Him were all things created Col. 1:16 my understanding is Jesus, was the first in God's plan of creation and everything was created by God, in and through the plan and purpose of Jesus. My understanding Jesus did not physically exist until the fullness of time. Ephesians 1:10 He was born of Mary the Son of God. the seed of woman. Genesis 3:15Matthew 1:20
My understanding is the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, not a person, Genesis 1:2. We see all the greetings are from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 1:71 Corinthians 1:32 Corinthians 1:2Galatians 1:3Ephesians 1:2Ephesians 6:23Philippians 1:2Colossians 1:2 and 6 more. The Holy Spirit not being included is a good clue the Holy Spirit was not considered a person by Paul and others at that time.
If so, who were they in relation to the Father?
I believe the above answers this.
How did the Father, the Son, and the Spirit all create all that is, seen or unseen?
My understanding is God the Father created all, Genesis 1:1Genesis 1:31Proverbs 16:4Isaiah 45:18Nehemiah 9:6.
Does Scripture teach that God is only one person who manifests in three forms, but all these manifestations are only one person?
Scripture does not support Modalism I have never considered this and do not know anything about it.
"For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die."
The next verse describes how we were yet sinners; or what Colossians 1:21 states in even harsher terms as "enemies of God."
Next time you hear someone talking about how loving we all should be ask them if they would be willing to die for their enemies who hate them. We hear a lot of talk these days about the love of God; usually reduced to some mushy sentimentality and hardly differentiated from human passions. First off; it is only a half truth to go around talking about God's love only when it happens to coincide with pleasant or pleasurable circumstances for people on earth. Yes God loved us when we were yet sinners but provided provision through the Son as His ONLY method to reconcile the enmity between us and Him due to indwelling sin. God cannot look upon sinful man and love Him in the state he is in but DESPITE the fact that he is in a lost state with a heart that is; according to Jeremiah 17:9 "desperately wicked". God's METHOD is by having the Son; for we either have the Son and therefore know God or we know neither (see 1 John 23:24). This involves the Father and Son coming to "dwell within us" ( John 14:23 which also implies the Holy Spirit sealing us until the day of redemption ( Eph. 4:30).
Those who would view Jesus as someone that is primarily promoting some sort of sentimental affection either is Biblically illiterate or willfully deceived. He talked about being a sword to divide families ( Matthew 10:34-36); rebuked the Pharisees harshly a number of times; destroyed the Temple moneychanger market at least twice; and challenged those who would feign to be His disciples but whose heart wasn't in it. He even rebuked His own disciples. This is demonstrating that true love in His own life was obeying God; and we are called to do the same for Christ ( John 14:23).
Again, thank you for your comments Ronald, & I can see that this discussion will need to end. But before that & to respond to some of your comments here, Colossians 1:15-17 shows that Jesus (in His pre-Incarnate Form) was involved in creation, & not simply a Thought or Word in God's Mind. 'For by Him were all things createdall things created by Him & for Him He is before all things & by Him all things consist'. For Paul to make a declaration as this & then we should force a meaning that Jesus was not the Creator & Sustainer within the Godhead, would exceed the limits of my comprehension. I'm sorry. As well, the use of 'Him, He' (Gk. auto), tells us that we are reading of a Person (albeit within the Person of God), Who is creating & not simply a Thought in God's Mind.
And I selected John 17:5 as a very apt verse to show how clearly Jesus Himself considered the Glory He once had with God, Who is now His Father through the incarnation; that Glory He laid aside for the sake of becoming human & thus for the "suffering of death" (for God indeed cannot die). I planned to also bring in the other Scriptures that I had given a few days earlier, for your interpretation & understanding, but used this one as a 'case-in-point' to learn of your thoughts. To Page 2.
Thank you for your reply, yes, Genesis 3:15 tells us He will come by the seed of a woman, and that is exactly what we see happen in Mary. My understanding of John 1:1-5 is John's prolog at the start of his gospel like Genesis 1:1 is a prolog to the rest of Genesis 1. John starts with, In the beginning.
I see this beginning as the coming of the Messiah/Christ the beginning of Jesus's ministry because in John 1:6, John goes to John the Baptist as the witness of the one who was to come, the Light that darkness did not comprehend. This is the start of Jesus's ministry when Jesus was anointed with the Holy Ghost/Spirit and God made Him the Messiah/Christ, Acts 2:36.
Jesus was sent for the lost sheep of Israel, Matthew 15:24, His role or ministry was to fulfill the law and the prophets in confirming the new covenant by His death and resurrection from the dead to pay the price for our sins. Daniel 9:27 is also about the 3.5 years of Jesus ministry but that is another topic. Jesus was the Messiah that was prophesied to come in Daniel. As I have discussed with Chris my understanding is Jesus was the beginning of the plan of God and like John 1:10 it is through Him not by Him.
Jesus, God' Son is first in God's plan of creation, and everything was created in and through Him and Jesus was begotten in the fullness of time. Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Colossians 1:20. I know you may also not agree with that but that is how I understand, it is God the Father who is the creator.
The light was the word of God that dwelt in Jesus, the glory of the Father that dwelt in Jesus, 2 Corinthians 4:6.
Apologies Ronald, I had to attach this Page 3 onto Page 1, as there was no Reply button on Page 2.
We can believe that Jesus is spoken of as that Light (by the text clearly given), but John goes back to the Word of vv 1-3; and that Word of God was made fleshJohn baring witness of Him. Bringing all this together, I can see that the Word of God was in Jesus (as it should be), but the clear word is more than that: the Word of God was Jesus. We know that Jesus, as the Word of God, was instrumental in the creation of the worlds & all things ( Colossians 1:15,16) and He is before all His creative Work & He holds them all together ( Hebrews 1:3). Given what we read in these verses, one would have to re-word the verses to make them mean anything else than the Word of God becoming flesh - or else, none of it makes any sense & would be rejected as meaningless. You've written about 'Jesus receiving God's Word at His Ministry', but how would you explain the following verses in John 1 that show God's Word, not just indwelling the Man Jesus, but becoming the Man ("God manifest in the flesh": 1 Timothy 3:16)? Blessings.
Hence, Scriptures such as have referred to here & in other discussions: Mark 2:5-7; John 1:1-14; John 20:27,28; Philippians 2:5-8; Colossians 1:15-17; Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 3:16; & others, are relevant in our discussions. I don't expect that we deal with all of these in one hit (maybe just the John 1 only), but in my understanding, these portions speak of Jesus prior to His coming to Earth - and these are the verses that we understand differently. The verses that speak of Jesus after His coming to Earth can only be correctly understood if we know Who He was before His coming.
You've shared John 1:1 just here, in reference to "what beginning" is spoken about. You understood it as "it was the word of God in Jesus", and also in other comments, that this 'beginning' is the beginning of Jesus' Ministry. So what I understand from you, is that when Jesus began His Ministry, God's Word came to Him/into Him, thus He brought that Word given to Him to the people.
The subject in John 1:1-18 is "the Word". Leaving aside for a moment 'Jesus receiving God's Word in the beginning of His Ministry', we read in John 1 that "the Word" was in "the beginning, with God & was God". So this Word is God (i.e. God cannot be Who He is without His Word actively in Him - also comparable to the Holy Spirit Who is God & a characteristic of His Existence, for out of God issues forth both His Word & His Spirit. All things were made by God through His Word (v 3), bringing Light & Life (v 4). Then John the Baptist says that he wasn't that Light but was to be a witness to it (vv 6-8); that Light which would come upon all men, made the world, but His own people rejected Him (vv 9-11). Onto Page 3.
God made Jesus Lord, Acts 2:36, made is thee Greek word ginomai that means to come into being, to happen, to become. This was foreordained before the foundation of the world and this Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:19-20Revelation 13:8, foreordained the Greek word proginosko means to know beforehand to appoint or decree beforehand.
I see too many Scriptures that do not agree with the doctrine. I hope this makes sense. This is Scripture without man's knowledge or wisdom 1 Corinthians 1:22Jeremiah 10:10 10 Malachi 2:10Mark 12:32
Paul wrote these; Romans 3:30Romans 15:61 Corinthians 8:62 Corinthians 1:32 Corinthians 11:31Ephesians 1:3Ephesians 1:17Ephesians 3:14Ephesians 4:6Colossians 1:31 Timothy 2:5
Peter wrote this; 1 Peter 1:3
These are Jesus's words Himself; Matthew 27:46 Same in Mark 15:34John 14:28John 17:3John 20:17Revelation 3:12
What this says to me, there is only one true God who is the God and Father of Jesus,
These Scriptures are clear without our wisdom or knowledge do not agree with the doctrine of the Trinity. I do thank you and again I hope you do not consider me a Gnostic that would be sad, they are more of a philosophical like the immortal soul came from Greek philosophy, I am believer and follower of Jesus our Lord and savior.
Sorry brother Giannis for placing my comment to your old comment here, as I was unable to get a Reply button on your recent one on Colossians 1:16-20.
So thanks for explaining this difficulty in knowing what Paul was actually trying to convey. People living at that time could of course come back to Paul & ask him to be more specific in his meaning - we can't, but we do have all the Scriptures to help us know what he was conveying to us, believing that he (& the other writers) did not report conflicting teaching. Knowing that all Scriptures support each other perfectly so it can only be our misunderstandings that creates difficulties for us when bringing them together.
And so when we get back to Colossians 1:15, "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature", & in line with the following verses about the work of creating done 'through'Him/'by' Him, then clearly the firstborn of all creation (i.e. that Jesus was also a created Being) cannot also be the One 'through' Whom God created all things. One could ask, 'why couldn't God Himself create all things rather than creating a 'firstborn' through Whom Creation came into being?' I understand that you or your congregation understand 'firstborn' as the first to led others into the New Birth, though when I see 'pases', it seems that it refers to 'all, the whole, every kind of', & not specifically to those to be In Christ. Anyway, thanks again for the explanation.
Re: Colossians 1:16. 'en auto'. In my Lexicon, I do read it as you do, that 'in Him' (en auto) is given. Though looking at 'en', other prepositions are also provided, viz. on, at, by, with. Without getting too deep into something I'm unqualified in (leave that with Giannis or Jesse), the explanation given for using 'en' for this verse is, "of that in which other things are contained and upheld, as their cause and origin: i.e., in God. In God is found the cause why we live, Acts 17:28; in Christ, as the divine hypostatic, in him resides the cause why all things were originally created, Colossians 1:16 (the cause both instrumental and final as well)." Very wordy for sure, but the way I read it, is that if we see Colossians 1:16 as "For (in) him (Jesus) were all things created", then 'in Jesus (the Divine Hypostatic = the underlying reality or substance), God has allowed all created things to find its origin & cause'. Then could it be understood that if Jesus was the origin & cause of creation, would the KJB be wrong by its translation, "For (by) him were all things created"?
And finally, Hebrews 1:3,4. I can agree with you in part: that He was "made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they". Clearly, this comparison of Jesus to the angelic host was as a result of His Coming & completed Work of Salvation - and of course rising into Glory & seated at the Father's right Hand. And so the Angels of God worship Him (v6). So, now to the word 'made'. You wrote, "He was made, means He was not before He completed what His Father sent Him to do." Again, we appeal to the Greek (& to our brethren here), the word here is 'genomenos' (having become/come into being/happen). Could our KJB have used a word ('made') that does not correctly reflect the original? Loosely, 'made' or 'becoming' can be similar in usage, if made is not meant as 'created' but as 'changed in position/rank'. Onto Page 3.
Once again Ronald, thank you for your responses & don't feel pressured to respond for lack of time or opportunity - I too have to deal with some daily mundane tasks that rob me from giving more time here on these pages.
Re: John 1:1. The 'beginning' that John refers to here, is in my understanding, of eternity past where time is irrelevant. If the rest of this passage was not given, I could suppose that 'beginning' might apply to whatever one deems as a best fit. But the following words qualify that 'eternity' is spoken of: this Word was both God & with God (Who of course resides in eternity). The subject here is the Word, & this Word (from God & John already understands this Word to apply to Jesus he is now witness to) was instrumental in creation, holder of Life, which is to be the "Light of men". If no more was written, then we could still apply the 'Word' to the Mind of God & His utterances, & to no one or anything else. But John clarifies that this 'Word was made Flesh & dwelt among us". So, with all this detail, I can only believe that God's Word was in eternity as God is, & from that Word within God, the worlds were created; & then at the right time, God took His Word & brought forth One that would reflect Him in the flesh & perform His Will for mankind.
Re: Colossians 1:15-18. "Firstborn", as stated in another post, I understand the word to apply to the rank, pro-eminence, & privileges that rightly come to a firstborn child and not to Jesus being the firstborn (or beginning of creation). I don't see this reference here applying to a 'new creation/re-birth' or any position within all of God's Creation, simply because the whole passage shows this firstborn being the Creator of all things, for Himself, & He holds them all together. If this is not so, then God created a Creator to create these things, which then places John 1:1-14 into question where God's Word was already a characteristic of God & not received at a later time. To Page 2.
Colossians 1:15-18 as in John 1:1 what beginning is John writing about, this gives a different understanding, In Colossians what creation is Paul writing about if we look at it as the start of all creation, the angels the counsels of heaven as we see in Job 38, they were before this earth or is Paul writing about the new creation. Is Paul referring to Jesus before He was crucified? Or is Paul referring to the risen Christ? In Christ is the resurrected Christ not the Christ when He first came.
One other thing and Giannis can let us know if I am correct or not in verse 16, by Him, the Greek is en auto meaning in Him as we see in 2 Corinthian 5:17 Ephesians 1:4,9Colossians 2:6 to be in the risen Christ. Paul is talking about the new creation. 2 Corinthians 5:16-19 to be in Christ is to be a new creature/creation and reconciliation, this is this world and in heaven as we see things in heaven is as bad as on this earth and Jesus Christ is to make all new.
Hebrews 1:3-4 Jesus was made much better than the angels, this after He was totally obedient died on the cross and raised from the dead and ascended to heaven above all that is in heaven and earth. and in Him all will be made new. He was made means He was not before He completed what His Father sent Him to do. Matt. 28:18John 3:35John 5:26-27John 6:39 what Jesus did and had was given to Him from the Father.
I know this is short, I may be away for a while but hope to reply more soon.
Thanks Giannis for sharing in this. I can agree to Romans 8:29, " that he might be the firstborn among many brethren"; that clearly 'prototokos' here refers to Christ being our 'Forerunner' leading those who are saved by His Blood, into the new Birth He has provided for us; i.e. we follow Jesus, Who is the Firstborn among us.
Yet, with Colossians 1:15, "the firstborn of every creature" (or, creation), doesn't seem to imply that believers are the object; though you (or, your Church) feels it does: "that first born of all creation means that Jesus was the first child of God among all other born(again) children (us, God's children)". It's interesting that 'creation' is used here, which doesn't seem to easily bring Christ's Church into its meaning.
That was interesting about the usage of 'arche', that it could be applied to rulers, principalities, etc. I checked your reference Revelation 3:14, and though the application of 'arche' is defined as "that by which anything begins to be, the origin, active cause", your other references ( Colossians 1:16 & Ephesians 3:10) certainly apply to 'principalities/rulers'. And other references are given in support of this: Luke 12:11, Titus 3:1, Ephesians 1:21, Colossians 2:10, & others. So thank you for giving us more to consider in this matter.
Thank you Ronald for taking the trouble to respond in detail. I will try to focus on certain Scriptures that are vital in this discussion, and keeping it short, knowing that we do read them differently. And I also note that you believe that Jesus & the Plan of Salvation was in God's Mind from the beginning, yet Jesus' appearance was not in God/with God, but on Earth.
Colossians 1:15-17: "Who (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him (Jesus), and for him (Jesus): And he (Jesus) is before all things, and by him (Jesus) all things consist."
Of course, I've added Jesus' Name to emphasize that this passage is about Him. Let's then assume that Jesus had no beginning, except in God's Mind & Plan & at Jesus' entrance at Bethlehem, how then does this passage in Colossians read to you? Of course, it would make perfect sense if the passage speaks about God creating & holding together by His Power, but unfortunately, it doesn't. Therefore, if you agree that it isn't God being spoken about but Jesus, how does Jesus do all this creating, holding together in place, & done for His Sake, if He was just a thought in God's Mind & had not yet made an appearance?
You also quoted 1 John 1:1-3: "seems to point to the start of the ministry of Jesus, this is a personal experience of the author and peers". It could indeed, except John writes "That which was from the beginningwhich was with the Father, and was manifested unto us". So we need to focus on such declarations, even the John 17:5 one of Jesus endued with God's Glory even before the worlds. The question in my mind is: from such verses, is it correct to believe that Jesus had no beginning other than at Bethlehem?
John 17:5 I may not be able to answer this satisfactorily, but I do not think Jesus was in heaven other than in God's plan in God's thoughts as the word logos is the expression of a thought. When Jesus was baptized, He was anointed without measure by the Holy Spirit/Ghost, John 3:34 at that point Jesus was given power and authority John 5:26-27 and then Matthew 28:18.
All through the New Testament Jesus said what He said, what He did, and the works that were done was God His Father and not Him, John 14:10, it was the word of God, God was manifested in Jesus everything was given to Jesus, He did not have it before God the Father gave it to Him.
God dwelt in Jesus and Jesus in Him, I feel Jesus became the Tabernacle of God, as His name shall be called Emmanuel God with us, same as Jesus told Peter, John 14:9. Jesus had the full measure of the Holy Spirit/Ghost this is why He said what He said in John 14:17 they saw the Holy Spirit/Ghost because it was with them in Him that gave Jesus the power for God to do the works/miracles.
This was in the prayer Jesus was praying to His Father just before He went to the cross, Jesus was asking His Father to glorify Him so that He may glorify God so that we might know the only true God. John17:1-3 Mark 12:29.
Colossians 1:15-17 I will try on this one, "in the image" is a mirror-like representation that Jesus was, like He said to Peter if you have seen me, you have seen God. Man cannot see God nor look on Him, John 1:18 Jesus was the faithful witness Revelation 1:5 and a witness tells or reveals the truth, and Jesus showed us the truth of who God is the only true God.
Jesus was the first and everything in God's thoughts and mind, Jesus was there in God's mind but was not sent until the fullness of time, Ephesians 1:10. I feel that is why Jesus said over and over it is not me but He who sent me.
I know we may differ, but I hope I am showing honestly my understanding.
'arche' = 'something that was in the beginning: a first principle; a substance or primal element; an actuating principle (as a cause). If we take the first meaning of 'something having a beginning', then your suggestion might be valid. If, as 'an actuating principal - a causation', then we read the verse as, 'These things saith the Amen.the One to cause or initiate all of God's Creation'; that Jesus Himself wasn't God's first Creation, but the cause or reason for creation, i.e. the 'He Who initiated the beginning of creation', being the 'Reason for creation's beginning'.
'proto-tokos' = 'first-to bring forth'. Here, in Colossians 1:15,18, Jesus is seen as both the "firstborn of every creature and the firstborn from the dead". I see 'firstborn' here, not with a biological view, but in Christ's position; or else, He was certainly not the 'firstborn from the dead', as some have been brought to life from the dead prior to His Resurrection. So, it's best to read these verses as Jesus' station & rank that remains, as always, above every human being & all of creation, whether in their creation, birth or death. And as a side-note, we must be aware that the JW conveniently changes 'prototokos' to 'protokitises': from 'first to bring forth' to 'first to be created': which of course supports the idea that Jesus was a created Being.
If I may respond to your good questions brother Ronald.
a. Revelation 3:14, "These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God". I think you're stating that Jesus existed in Heaven (i.e. before the rest of God's creative Work done by Him) & then came to Earth as a babe. Apologies if I've misunderstood, as this understanding is at variance with the general belief by the non-trinitarian, that Jesus made His first appearance as a human & He had no existence before that.
True, there were two 'Adams': "The first man (Adam) is of the earth, earthy: the second man (Adam) is the Lord from heaven" ( 1 Corinthians 15:47). Is Paul suggesting that this Jesus, before all creation, was also the Lord from Heaven or mistaken, that He was a sub-Lord? Then the question, 'if Jesus was created by God before other of His created Works, what was His position in Heaven - was He God's Assistant in His Works or the Lord Who shared (partook) in God's Glory' ( John 17:5) - or maybe God created another god (but how would that work for God cannot be created, or else the created one can never be a supreme God?).
And Jesus must have been immortal as all heavenly beings are & all humans are (having an immortal spirit that can never die). So, maybe some clarification on how you understand this matter. Then back to Revelation 3:14: we can also bring in Colossians 1:15-17: Jesus, as One from God, stands then as He is now, the Image of the invisible God, Who not only created all things "by Him (Himself), but for Him (Himself)". If He then is "the firstborn of every creature" (v15) & "the firstborn from the dead" (v18), this might indicate that from examination of this word, 'firstborn' (prototokos), we can understand this "beginning of God's Creation & firstborn of every creature". And also in Revelation 3:14, the "beginning" of the creation of God: 'arche', from which we get words like 'arche-type'. Onto Page 2.
God the Father granted Christ all authority on heaven and earth which sets forth the ultimate example of how God worked to reward the perfect obedience of Christ. It also goes against Satan's offer to worship him to have such authority. ( Matthew 28:18; Matthew 4:9).
One may question how Christ; who Himself brought all of creation into existence would have such a destiny. ( Colossians 1:16-20). In that situation; one may say that He was the Person to do the work that the Father had planned; and His agent as it were was the Spirit of God (hovering over the waters as it states in Genesis 1:2).
We realize in this that no servant is greater than his master. ( John 15:20). We all are nothing without Him; yet He will likewise exalt the humble with positions to rule and reign with Christ in the Millennium. In some sense we can say that Christ emptied Himself so that He could be our High Priest suffering in all ways but without sin. ( Heb. 4:15). As the second Adam He was able to keep from the temptations of the devil to fall unlike Adam; as well as fulfilling the law perfectly which no man could do. ( 1 Cor. 15:45-47).
It is hard to get our mind around these facts; that He who created all things would start from conception as a helpless babe and end as a sheep to the slaughter ( Isaiah 53:7); the Lamb of God which will forever be ascribed to His Name. Of course all of us who are saved are adopted sons; ( Ephesians 1:5) part of the eternal lineage of the rightous (as contrasted with the earth dwellers in Revelation 11:10).
Christ is returning as conquering king. He alone trods the winepress ( Isaiah 63:3). He alone brings forth the TRUE one world government of peace and rules in righteousness; impartially judging as many verses in Isaiah testify. Some verses can be taken symbolically but to not take Revelation 19 literally or somehow think Christ already returned in some mystical way is heretical thinking (see 2 Tim. 2:18)
Happy Sunday. Some verses that jumped out at me...
1 Timothy 3:16
Colossians 1:14-20
John 14:6
Isaiah 48:12, Revelation 22:13
My interpretation: Jesus is a big deal. Probably bigger than we realize and He loves us and died for each of us that we may choose to follow Him. God bless.
Jesus lived a sinless life by always choosing to exercise faith in God, never sinning, thus He did not deserve the curse of the law; yet took the curse upon himself and trade for humanity.
How many times have unbelievers and believers alike said, it is not fair that all of humanity would pay the price of eternal damnation because of one man's choice, Adam's decision.
Yet, the righteousness of God is seen in that Humanity is saved, with the penalty of sin paid for by one man's choice, Jesus decision to take our place.
There is both quality and justice in the trade; wherein God's righteousness is maintained, while at the same time displaying mercy and grace.
This is the reason for 1 Corinthians 15:22, which states: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
And 1 Corinthians 15:45, which states:
"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."
The only way that God could save fallen man was by Jesus becoming our kinsman Redeemer, by both purchasing us with His blood; while at the same time killing death for the sake of His family, "humanity" (And in the second coming destroying the enemies of his people).
Jesus stated in John 5:39:
"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
All of God's Word has one purpose, it is the glorification of God ("Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him." Isaiah 43:7), and His Son Jesus Christ ( Ephesians 1:20-22; Romans 11:36; Colossians 1:12-19).
It is Jesus that deserves preeminence in God's Word.
All of these Old Testament types and shadows ( Hebrews 8:5; 10:1; Colossians 2:17) and figures (Theologically referred to as "Expositional Constancy" meant as object lessons to paint the picture of the Messiah, so that He would be recognizable when He came.
Hi Mary Jay. As you know, we don't align in our understanding of the Scriptures, but thought to address this one post from you as an example.
In answer to your question, I exist as a physical person, now saved & revived by the Blood of Christ & His Spirit, joined to the Body of Christ. Am I "the BODY of Christ?" NO. My understanding of the Scriptures is that the Body of Christ is the Church ( Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:18,24). So, I'm not the Body, Christ is; I am a part of that Body, the parts of which comprise the Church ( Romans 12:4,5; 1 Corinthians 12:12-14). There can only be one Body, or else, if each member is the Body of Christ, then Christ is no longer the Head of His Church but the Head of each person. And though 1 Corinthians 11:3 states, "...that the head of every man is Christ...", this verse speaks about the position, in the spiritual realm & of the Church presenting before God, of woman to the man, of man to Christ & of Christ to God.
So with Galatians 2:20, my understanding of "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me...", is that my life that I now live is not my own (my ownership), but belongs to Christ (His ownership) with Christ (by His Spirit) Who now lives in me. This is a personal relationship with the risen Christ, with Whom all others who completely identify with Him, also enjoy. Thus together we form His Church, which is His Body; so the individual can never be Christ's Body - only His Church can be, which is the collection of believers.
Ephesians 4:13 Till WE ALL COME into the UNITY of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a PERFECT MAN, unto the measure of the FULLNESS of Christ.
Colossians 2:9 For IN HIM dwelleth all the FULLNESS of the Godhead BODILY.
Colossians 1:27 .... this mystery ..... Christ IN YOU ......are you not the body of Christ .....
1 Corinthians 12:27 ... ye are the BODY of Christ ......
John 19:34 ..... Is it not written IN YOU LAW, I HAVE SAID, Ye are gods?
Why the KJV translators chose to use the term "Godhead," I do not know. Other English translations also use the term Godhead. Where I see the phrase "fullness of the Godhead" being applied to Jesus, this tells me that He is the fullness of God who came in the flesh (in bodily form).
Colossians 1:19 says that it pleased the Father that in Him (Jesus) should all fullness dwell. So, in Christ dwells all of the fullness of who God is. All of the fullness of "Deity" dwells in the body of Jesus. God in His fullness was in Christ.
In Hebrews 1:3, speaking of Jesus, it says "Who being the brightness of His glory." The word brightness is literally translated out beam. APAUGASMA is the Greek word. It means the out beam of His (God's) glory. It is a technical term describing God projecting Himself through the time/space factor, and taking up residency in the person of Christ, yet while still being God.
In the Greek language, there are two words that are used to describe Christ and the process of God coming into this world. So, if I combine APAUGASMA with EICON, which is the word image, it's the same terminology in the Greek language that is talking about the source of light and power remaining the same. Jesus Christ who is the image (EICON), of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.
What this is telling me is that Jesus Christ is the projection of God through the time space barrier and has taken up residency amongst us as a human being, while never being separate from the source. This is the function of God. Jesus Christ is the projection of the glory of God. He is the APAUGASMA of God's glory. He is God who has projected Himself through time and space and has residency amongst us.
Ronald, I know we are probably going to remain in disagreement on this one, although I do enjoy our discussion. Please know that I am not ignoring your questions. I will take them into consideration as I continue on in my studies.
Thank you Jema for your reply. On the Isaiah 13:12 reference, we would find no agreement at all, as the verse, when understood naturally & in context refers to the scarcity of human life during those times of the LORD's intervention & destruction. If you are finding Jesus in there (i.e. "I will MAKE A MAN more precious than fine gold"), then that would have to be a personal discovery rather than a textual truth.
And likewise with Colossians 3:10, the text doesn't allow for such an interpretation (i.e. of God creating Jesus). Paul is writing about two 'persons': the new man (i.e. the human being renewed by the Spirit), and of God (Who creates in His (God's) Image). So, it doesn't speak of Jesus, but of man who was once created in God's Image (Adam), & then after the fall, that image was marred, which necessitated a re-creation of that image in man. And to do this, man had to be changed inwardly (becoming a 'new man'), who now is being "renewed in knowledge" into the image of the One (God) Who created him (man). Yes, we do have 2 Corinthians 4:4 & Colossians 1:15 to support your use of 'image' as to Christ's 'creation', but we also have Genesis 1:27 & 1 Corinthians 11:7 to support man being made in God's Image. But to put Christ in Colossians 3:10 would violate the point of that verse which is directed to man's renewal.
Lastly, you wrote that you "don't really relish the idea of a big debate". That puzzled me since you initiated those questions for our responses. If we gave responses without 'debate/discussion', then the whole exercise would be entirely fruitless & pointless. So maybe you just wanted to share your understanding of those verses, but not willing to defend your beliefs; and these matters (of Christ's Divinity, eternal judgement, etc.) are vital to Christians & also in the preaching of the Gospel. Without these fundamentals, we have no Gospel - we have no message of liberty & hope to share with a lost world.
Colossians 1:27 ..... this mystery ..... Christ in you ......
Galatians 2:20 I am CRUCIFIED with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet, NOT I, but Christ lives IN ME ....
Notice it's NO LONGER YOU that lives, you DIED on the cross, yoru NOW the BODY of Christ.
You were married to Christ at his resurrection, YOU and CHRIST became ONE.
John 17:22 And the glory that thou (God) gave me (Christ), I (Christ have given them (you Angel), that even as we (God and Christ) are ONE, that they (you Angel) are ONE in us.
May I add a little bit of my understanding to your understanding, which are parallel to each other.
We are taught by God, the Spirit of truth and life that gives us existence.
God is Spirit, invisible, yet he wants to be known and seen, so he created a BODY, and he called that MAN Christ (Adam) the beginning of creation.
Through that MAN, Christ. he does ALL THE WORKS of the Almighty God, so truth and life CAN BE SEEN.
Christ can appear in a body of flesh, or he can be the SPIRIT of prophecy, he is omnipresent as is his Father.
We cannot exist without the SPIRIT of God, through Christ, giving us LIFE, just as Christ, a BODY, cannot exist without the Spirit of his Father giving him LIFE.
Christ commended HIS Spirit, the Spirit of HIS Father back to God who gave him LIFE, thus his body DIED on the cross, for the SALVATION of God's creation.
When God put his Spirit back into Christ he RESURRECTED all creation ANEW, the IMAGE of GOD, the body of Christ.
When we are MATURE in the TRUTH and LIFE of God, Christ will sent his angels to harvest us, in the twinkling of an eye we will PUT ON CHRIST, the express IMAGE and GLORY of GOD.
Christ told his disciples I go to prepare a place for you, that where I am, there will you be also.
At present Christ is indwelling creation revealing the KINGDOM of God to creation.
Isaiah 63:9 ...and the ANGEL of HIS presence SAVED them ....
Colossians 1:27 ... thist mystery .... CHRIST IN YOU ......
That where I am ye may be also.
Revelation 10:11 ... Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and TEACH ALL NATION, BAPTIZING in the NAME .....
His disciples never understood till pentecost that they would not be able to TEACH ALL NATION, until they had been harvested and become the express IMAGE and Glory of God, all by the WORKS of Christ RESURRECTION.
Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man.
God has many warnings in scripture regarding not making idols of created beings or heavenly objects such as the moon and stars. This verse shows how God cannot be reduced to a man made concept or picture.
Colossians 1:15 states: "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." This verse is discussing Christ who although He came in a man is part of the Godhead; so certainly we shouldn't have images of Him either; especially to be venerated or worshipped. As to whether; say a stained glass window is equally offensive we have to look to the heart of those who are attending a church service; as sadly some even with such an object as that will find some feature that seems to have some supernatural light in the image which is idolotry. The same could be said for the Apostles on such imagery; a Protestant wouldn't have any desire normally to make it an idol; but other denominations such as Greek Orthodox have statues of "saints" which clearly constitute worship that is against scripture.
John 1:18 states that no man has ever seen God but in Christ we in a sense see Him. His attributes including the Godhead are said to be clear from creation ( Romans 1:20). This was said to be known from the time of Creation according to the beginning of this verse. This shows that only later the nations departed from the knowledge that Adam and his immediate descendants would have instilled in them; there was deliberate rebellion against the Creator throughout the earth; both after the garden and after the flood with the tower of Babel and then God confusing the languages and scattering men throughout the earth (see Genesis 10:25 on likely splitting off of continents and dispersion of men).
There was a question posted few weeks, regarding The Gift of The Holy Spirit.
Part 1
-I believe Jesus Christ is the son of the Living God and He died on the Cross for my sins, and He was buried and rose on the third Day and He is sited at the right hand of the father, and He is our high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.
-Brethren bear this in mind that God is the same and He does not change.
As it is written Malachi 3:6, kjv
For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
-As God spoke by the prophets in time past in these days, these last hours ( John 1:18) He speaks to us by His beloved son in whom we have been qualified to be saints in the inheritance in the light by His blood at the cross By repentance. ( Colossians 1:12-14,KJV)
-And if you have repented at the cross and received salvation which is by grace and faith alone none of any of our works then we receive gifts according to His will which He gives for the edifying of the ministry (body of Christ For He is the Head of the Church Colossians 1:18, KJV.)
As it written in Ephesians 4:7-8, KJV
7.But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
-And in time past ( Hebrews 1:1, KJV) They the prophets healed the sick, raised the dead and provided provisions and all according to the will of God and not mans will.
-Therefore, we serve the same Living God who has been in the beginning and Does not Change and Was manifest unto us as a child, but He was there from the begging as a Son given unto us as a Son Mighty God, everlasting Father. (Isiah 6:9 KJV)
As it is written in 1 timothy 3:16, KJV.
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
2 Peter 2:20. They had the knowledge of the Lord and Savior; they were saved and had escaped the pollutions/sins of the world. Can we escape sin outside of Christ? They choose to go back to a life of habitual, intentional, and willful sin. And their punishment will be worse, Luke 12:47-48.
Galatians 6:9 This to me is obedience, It says unless we faint, to me that is to give up, quit, intentionally turn away, we reap life everlasting. Colossians 1:23 "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel". If we continue that is a choice, we must make that is not given that is our obedience.
Jude 1:21 We are to keep ourselves, the Holy Spirit helps us, but this is something we do and if we do, He will keep us from falling. 2 Peter 1:10 If we do, it is not done for us, we have been given but it is up to us to obey and do, if they have forgotten they had to know it to forget it. If We Do!!! we shall never fall. Hebrews 6:13-16 What Abraham did, in his faith, he waited for a long time he endured. He did not faint or grow weary or turn his back to God, the evidence of his faith, just like when he drew back the knife.
This is not about a Christian who is struggling and battling sin regardless of how long they struggle they are still in the race and if they repent and return in the light will be forgiven and in the grace of God. As David said restore unto me the joy of thy salvation, Psalms 51:12. We all are in a battle with our flesh and sin daily. We can lose the joy of salvation and if we come under repentance, we will still be in God's grace but without repentance, we will be cut off.
This section I will attempt to address those scriptures you presented suggesting one can lose his Salvation.
Hebrews 3:12-13.
Verse 12) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Well, if there is an evil heart of unbelief, and deceitfulness of sin. THEN YOU ARE NOT SAVED!
1 John 1:7.
Ronald, I don't grasp you here. This is not a verse saying you can lose Salvation.
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, if we are in the light we are saved. If we are not in the light, we are not saved.
2 Peter 2:20.
Look at 2 Peter 2:22. These are dogs, NOT SONS! This is the same group described in the previous verses!
Take it from 2 Peter 2:9-20 to get the context.
Galatians 6:9.
Christians will go before the judgement seat of Christ to give an account for the things done in the flesh.
We are to keep sowing and in due season we will reap. this is the fruit of their labor.
He that soweth to the Spirit, sows to the spirit by the power of the Holyspirit.
Paul has just asked the Galatian Christians to be convinced, once again, that trusting their flesh in this life will only lead to corruption. Reliance on our own power only leads to death. That is true whether we trust human effort to save us by following the rituals and sacraments of the law, or by following our own selfish, sinful desires.
Salvation comes only by "planting" the Spirit. Through faith in Christ for the forgiveness of our sin.
God gives to us His own Spirit. Only that Spirit will deliver eternal life in the end.
Colossians 1:23.
Verses 21-22 states we have been reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Jude 1:24. says "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
So, those who is moved away from the faith was never saved.
Part 2 Trinity discussion
Did Jesus exist before creation? Did the Holy Spirit exist before creation?
Jesus existed in God's plan, Jesus is the beginning of creation Rev. 3:14 and by Him were all things created Col. 1:16 my understanding is Jesus, was the first in God's plan of creation and everything was created by God, in and through the plan and purpose of Jesus. My understanding Jesus did not physically exist until the fullness of time. Ephesians 1:10 He was born of Mary the Son of God. the seed of woman. Genesis 3:15 Matthew 1:20
My understanding is the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, not a person, Genesis 1:2. We see all the greetings are from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 1:7 1 Corinthians 1:3 2 Corinthians 1:2 Galatians 1:3 Ephesians 1:2 Ephesians 6:23 Philippians 1:2 Colossians 1:2 and 6 more. The Holy Spirit not being included is a good clue the Holy Spirit was not considered a person by Paul and others at that time.
If so, who were they in relation to the Father?
I believe the above answers this.
How did the Father, the Son, and the Spirit all create all that is, seen or unseen?
My understanding is God the Father created all, Genesis 1:1 Genesis 1:31 Proverbs 16:4 Isaiah 45:18 Nehemiah 9:6.
Does Scripture teach that God is only one person who manifests in three forms, but all these manifestations are only one person?
Scripture does not support Modalism I have never considered this and do not know anything about it.
See part 3.
Romans 8:7 states:
"For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die."
The next verse describes how we were yet sinners; or what Colossians 1:21 states in even harsher terms as "enemies of God."
Next time you hear someone talking about how loving we all should be ask them if they would be willing to die for their enemies who hate them. We hear a lot of talk these days about the love of God; usually reduced to some mushy sentimentality and hardly differentiated from human passions. First off; it is only a half truth to go around talking about God's love only when it happens to coincide with pleasant or pleasurable circumstances for people on earth. Yes God loved us when we were yet sinners but provided provision through the Son as His ONLY method to reconcile the enmity between us and Him due to indwelling sin. God cannot look upon sinful man and love Him in the state he is in but DESPITE the fact that he is in a lost state with a heart that is; according to Jeremiah 17:9 "desperately wicked". God's METHOD is by having the Son; for we either have the Son and therefore know God or we know neither (see 1 John 23:24). This involves the Father and Son coming to "dwell within us" ( John 14:23 which also implies the Holy Spirit sealing us until the day of redemption ( Eph. 4:30).
Those who would view Jesus as someone that is primarily promoting some sort of sentimental affection either is Biblically illiterate or willfully deceived. He talked about being a sword to divide families ( Matthew 10:34-36); rebuked the Pharisees harshly a number of times; destroyed the Temple moneychanger market at least twice; and challenged those who would feign to be His disciples but whose heart wasn't in it. He even rebuked His own disciples. This is demonstrating that true love in His own life was obeying God; and we are called to do the same for Christ ( John 14:23).
Again, thank you for your comments Ronald, & I can see that this discussion will need to end. But before that & to respond to some of your comments here, Colossians 1:15-17 shows that Jesus (in His pre-Incarnate Form) was involved in creation, & not simply a Thought or Word in God's Mind. 'For by Him were all things createdall things created by Him & for Him He is before all things & by Him all things consist'. For Paul to make a declaration as this & then we should force a meaning that Jesus was not the Creator & Sustainer within the Godhead, would exceed the limits of my comprehension. I'm sorry. As well, the use of 'Him, He' (Gk. auto), tells us that we are reading of a Person (albeit within the Person of God), Who is creating & not simply a Thought in God's Mind.
And I selected John 17:5 as a very apt verse to show how clearly Jesus Himself considered the Glory He once had with God, Who is now His Father through the incarnation; that Glory He laid aside for the sake of becoming human & thus for the "suffering of death" (for God indeed cannot die). I planned to also bring in the other Scriptures that I had given a few days earlier, for your interpretation & understanding, but used this one as a 'case-in-point' to learn of your thoughts. To Page 2.
Thank you for your reply, yes, Genesis 3:15 tells us He will come by the seed of a woman, and that is exactly what we see happen in Mary. My understanding of John 1:1-5 is John's prolog at the start of his gospel like Genesis 1:1 is a prolog to the rest of Genesis 1. John starts with, In the beginning.
I see this beginning as the coming of the Messiah/Christ the beginning of Jesus's ministry because in John 1:6, John goes to John the Baptist as the witness of the one who was to come, the Light that darkness did not comprehend. This is the start of Jesus's ministry when Jesus was anointed with the Holy Ghost/Spirit and God made Him the Messiah/Christ, Acts 2:36.
Jesus was sent for the lost sheep of Israel, Matthew 15:24, His role or ministry was to fulfill the law and the prophets in confirming the new covenant by His death and resurrection from the dead to pay the price for our sins. Daniel 9:27 is also about the 3.5 years of Jesus ministry but that is another topic. Jesus was the Messiah that was prophesied to come in Daniel. As I have discussed with Chris my understanding is Jesus was the beginning of the plan of God and like John 1:10 it is through Him not by Him.
Jesus, God' Son is first in God's plan of creation, and everything was created in and through Him and Jesus was begotten in the fullness of time. Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Colossians 1:20. I know you may also not agree with that but that is how I understand, it is God the Father who is the creator.
The light was the word of God that dwelt in Jesus, the glory of the Father that dwelt in Jesus, 2 Corinthians 4:6.
God bless,
RLW
Apologies Ronald, I had to attach this Page 3 onto Page 1, as there was no Reply button on Page 2.
We can believe that Jesus is spoken of as that Light (by the text clearly given), but John goes back to the Word of vv 1-3; and that Word of God was made fleshJohn baring witness of Him. Bringing all this together, I can see that the Word of God was in Jesus (as it should be), but the clear word is more than that: the Word of God was Jesus. We know that Jesus, as the Word of God, was instrumental in the creation of the worlds & all things ( Colossians 1:15,16) and He is before all His creative Work & He holds them all together ( Hebrews 1:3). Given what we read in these verses, one would have to re-word the verses to make them mean anything else than the Word of God becoming flesh - or else, none of it makes any sense & would be rejected as meaningless. You've written about 'Jesus receiving God's Word at His Ministry', but how would you explain the following verses in John 1 that show God's Word, not just indwelling the Man Jesus, but becoming the Man ("God manifest in the flesh": 1 Timothy 3:16)? Blessings.
Hence, Scriptures such as have referred to here & in other discussions: Mark 2:5-7; John 1:1-14; John 20:27,28; Philippians 2:5-8; Colossians 1:15-17; Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 3:16; & others, are relevant in our discussions. I don't expect that we deal with all of these in one hit (maybe just the John 1 only), but in my understanding, these portions speak of Jesus prior to His coming to Earth - and these are the verses that we understand differently. The verses that speak of Jesus after His coming to Earth can only be correctly understood if we know Who He was before His coming.
You've shared John 1:1 just here, in reference to "what beginning" is spoken about. You understood it as "it was the word of God in Jesus", and also in other comments, that this 'beginning' is the beginning of Jesus' Ministry. So what I understand from you, is that when Jesus began His Ministry, God's Word came to Him/into Him, thus He brought that Word given to Him to the people.
The subject in John 1:1-18 is "the Word". Leaving aside for a moment 'Jesus receiving God's Word in the beginning of His Ministry', we read in John 1 that "the Word" was in "the beginning, with God & was God". So this Word is God (i.e. God cannot be Who He is without His Word actively in Him - also comparable to the Holy Spirit Who is God & a characteristic of His Existence, for out of God issues forth both His Word & His Spirit. All things were made by God through His Word (v 3), bringing Light & Life (v 4). Then John the Baptist says that he wasn't that Light but was to be a witness to it (vv 6-8); that Light which would come upon all men, made the world, but His own people rejected Him (vv 9-11). Onto Page 3.
Part 2
God made Jesus Lord, Acts 2:36, made is thee Greek word ginomai that means to come into being, to happen, to become. This was foreordained before the foundation of the world and this Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:19-20 Revelation 13:8, foreordained the Greek word proginosko means to know beforehand to appoint or decree beforehand.
I see too many Scriptures that do not agree with the doctrine. I hope this makes sense. This is Scripture without man's knowledge or wisdom 1 Corinthians 1:22 Jeremiah 10:10 10 Malachi 2:10 Mark 12:32
Paul wrote these; Romans 3:30 Romans 15:6 1 Corinthians 8:6 2 Corinthians 1:3 2 Corinthians 11:31 Ephesians 1:3 Ephesians 1:17 Ephesians 3:14 Ephesians 4:6 Colossians 1:3 1 Timothy 2:5
Peter wrote this; 1 Peter 1:3
These are Jesus's words Himself; Matthew 27:46 Same in Mark 15:34 John 14:28 John 17:3 John 20:17 Revelation 3:12
What this says to me, there is only one true God who is the God and Father of Jesus,
These Scriptures are clear without our wisdom or knowledge do not agree with the doctrine of the Trinity. I do thank you and again I hope you do not consider me a Gnostic that would be sad, they are more of a philosophical like the immortal soul came from Greek philosophy, I am believer and follower of Jesus our Lord and savior.
God bless,
RLW
So thanks for explaining this difficulty in knowing what Paul was actually trying to convey. People living at that time could of course come back to Paul & ask him to be more specific in his meaning - we can't, but we do have all the Scriptures to help us know what he was conveying to us, believing that he (& the other writers) did not report conflicting teaching. Knowing that all Scriptures support each other perfectly so it can only be our misunderstandings that creates difficulties for us when bringing them together.
And so when we get back to Colossians 1:15, "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature", & in line with the following verses about the work of creating done 'through'Him/'by' Him, then clearly the firstborn of all creation (i.e. that Jesus was also a created Being) cannot also be the One 'through' Whom God created all things. One could ask, 'why couldn't God Himself create all things rather than creating a 'firstborn' through Whom Creation came into being?' I understand that you or your congregation understand 'firstborn' as the first to led others into the New Birth, though when I see 'pases', it seems that it refers to 'all, the whole, every kind of', & not specifically to those to be In Christ. Anyway, thanks again for the explanation.
Re: Colossians 1:16. 'en auto'. In my Lexicon, I do read it as you do, that 'in Him' (en auto) is given. Though looking at 'en', other prepositions are also provided, viz. on, at, by, with. Without getting too deep into something I'm unqualified in (leave that with Giannis or Jesse), the explanation given for using 'en' for this verse is, "of that in which other things are contained and upheld, as their cause and origin: i.e., in God. In God is found the cause why we live, Acts 17:28; in Christ, as the divine hypostatic, in him resides the cause why all things were originally created, Colossians 1:16 (the cause both instrumental and final as well)." Very wordy for sure, but the way I read it, is that if we see Colossians 1:16 as "For (in) him (Jesus) were all things created", then 'in Jesus (the Divine Hypostatic = the underlying reality or substance), God has allowed all created things to find its origin & cause'. Then could it be understood that if Jesus was the origin & cause of creation, would the KJB be wrong by its translation, "For (by) him were all things created"?
And finally, Hebrews 1:3,4. I can agree with you in part: that He was "made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they". Clearly, this comparison of Jesus to the angelic host was as a result of His Coming & completed Work of Salvation - and of course rising into Glory & seated at the Father's right Hand. And so the Angels of God worship Him (v6). So, now to the word 'made'. You wrote, "He was made, means He was not before He completed what His Father sent Him to do." Again, we appeal to the Greek (& to our brethren here), the word here is 'genomenos' (having become/come into being/happen). Could our KJB have used a word ('made') that does not correctly reflect the original? Loosely, 'made' or 'becoming' can be similar in usage, if made is not meant as 'created' but as 'changed in position/rank'. Onto Page 3.
Once again Ronald, thank you for your responses & don't feel pressured to respond for lack of time or opportunity - I too have to deal with some daily mundane tasks that rob me from giving more time here on these pages.
Re: John 1:1. The 'beginning' that John refers to here, is in my understanding, of eternity past where time is irrelevant. If the rest of this passage was not given, I could suppose that 'beginning' might apply to whatever one deems as a best fit. But the following words qualify that 'eternity' is spoken of: this Word was both God & with God (Who of course resides in eternity). The subject here is the Word, & this Word (from God & John already understands this Word to apply to Jesus he is now witness to) was instrumental in creation, holder of Life, which is to be the "Light of men". If no more was written, then we could still apply the 'Word' to the Mind of God & His utterances, & to no one or anything else. But John clarifies that this 'Word was made Flesh & dwelt among us". So, with all this detail, I can only believe that God's Word was in eternity as God is, & from that Word within God, the worlds were created; & then at the right time, God took His Word & brought forth One that would reflect Him in the flesh & perform His Will for mankind.
Re: Colossians 1:15-18. "Firstborn", as stated in another post, I understand the word to apply to the rank, pro-eminence, & privileges that rightly come to a firstborn child and not to Jesus being the firstborn (or beginning of creation). I don't see this reference here applying to a 'new creation/re-birth' or any position within all of God's Creation, simply because the whole passage shows this firstborn being the Creator of all things, for Himself, & He holds them all together. If this is not so, then God created a Creator to create these things, which then places John 1:1-14 into question where God's Word was already a characteristic of God & not received at a later time. To Page 2.
Colossians 1:15-18 as in John 1:1 what beginning is John writing about, this gives a different understanding, In Colossians what creation is Paul writing about if we look at it as the start of all creation, the angels the counsels of heaven as we see in Job 38, they were before this earth or is Paul writing about the new creation. Is Paul referring to Jesus before He was crucified? Or is Paul referring to the risen Christ? In Christ is the resurrected Christ not the Christ when He first came.
One other thing and Giannis can let us know if I am correct or not in verse 16, by Him, the Greek is en auto meaning in Him as we see in 2 Corinthian 5:17 Ephesians 1:4,9 Colossians 2:6 to be in the risen Christ. Paul is talking about the new creation. 2 Corinthians 5:16-19 to be in Christ is to be a new creature/creation and reconciliation, this is this world and in heaven as we see things in heaven is as bad as on this earth and Jesus Christ is to make all new.
Hebrews 1:3-4 Jesus was made much better than the angels, this after He was totally obedient died on the cross and raised from the dead and ascended to heaven above all that is in heaven and earth. and in Him all will be made new. He was made means He was not before He completed what His Father sent Him to do. Matt. 28:18 John 3:35 John 5:26-27 John 6:39 what Jesus did and had was given to Him from the Father.
I know this is short, I may be away for a while but hope to reply more soon.
God bless,
RLW
Yet, with Colossians 1:15, "the firstborn of every creature" (or, creation), doesn't seem to imply that believers are the object; though you (or, your Church) feels it does: "that first born of all creation means that Jesus was the first child of God among all other born(again) children (us, God's children)". It's interesting that 'creation' is used here, which doesn't seem to easily bring Christ's Church into its meaning.
That was interesting about the usage of 'arche', that it could be applied to rulers, principalities, etc. I checked your reference Revelation 3:14, and though the application of 'arche' is defined as "that by which anything begins to be, the origin, active cause", your other references ( Colossians 1:16 & Ephesians 3:10) certainly apply to 'principalities/rulers'. And other references are given in support of this: Luke 12:11, Titus 3:1, Ephesians 1:21, Colossians 2:10, & others. So thank you for giving us more to consider in this matter.
Thank you Ronald for taking the trouble to respond in detail. I will try to focus on certain Scriptures that are vital in this discussion, and keeping it short, knowing that we do read them differently. And I also note that you believe that Jesus & the Plan of Salvation was in God's Mind from the beginning, yet Jesus' appearance was not in God/with God, but on Earth.
Colossians 1:15-17: "Who (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him (Jesus), and for him (Jesus): And he (Jesus) is before all things, and by him (Jesus) all things consist."
Of course, I've added Jesus' Name to emphasize that this passage is about Him. Let's then assume that Jesus had no beginning, except in God's Mind & Plan & at Jesus' entrance at Bethlehem, how then does this passage in Colossians read to you? Of course, it would make perfect sense if the passage speaks about God creating & holding together by His Power, but unfortunately, it doesn't. Therefore, if you agree that it isn't God being spoken about but Jesus, how does Jesus do all this creating, holding together in place, & done for His Sake, if He was just a thought in God's Mind & had not yet made an appearance?
You also quoted 1 John 1:1-3: "seems to point to the start of the ministry of Jesus, this is a personal experience of the author and peers". It could indeed, except John writes "That which was from the beginningwhich was with the Father, and was manifested unto us". So we need to focus on such declarations, even the John 17:5 one of Jesus endued with God's Glory even before the worlds. The question in my mind is: from such verses, is it correct to believe that Jesus had no beginning other than at Bethlehem?
To Page 2.
Part 2,
John 17:5 I may not be able to answer this satisfactorily, but I do not think Jesus was in heaven other than in God's plan in God's thoughts as the word logos is the expression of a thought. When Jesus was baptized, He was anointed without measure by the Holy Spirit/Ghost, John 3:34 at that point Jesus was given power and authority John 5:26-27 and then Matthew 28:18.
All through the New Testament Jesus said what He said, what He did, and the works that were done was God His Father and not Him, John 14:10, it was the word of God, God was manifested in Jesus everything was given to Jesus, He did not have it before God the Father gave it to Him.
God dwelt in Jesus and Jesus in Him, I feel Jesus became the Tabernacle of God, as His name shall be called Emmanuel God with us, same as Jesus told Peter, John 14:9. Jesus had the full measure of the Holy Spirit/Ghost this is why He said what He said in John 14:17 they saw the Holy Spirit/Ghost because it was with them in Him that gave Jesus the power for God to do the works/miracles.
This was in the prayer Jesus was praying to His Father just before He went to the cross, Jesus was asking His Father to glorify Him so that He may glorify God so that we might know the only true God. John17:1-3 Mark 12:29.
Colossians 1:15-17 I will try on this one, "in the image" is a mirror-like representation that Jesus was, like He said to Peter if you have seen me, you have seen God. Man cannot see God nor look on Him, John 1:18 Jesus was the faithful witness Revelation 1:5 and a witness tells or reveals the truth, and Jesus showed us the truth of who God is the only true God.
Jesus was the first and everything in God's thoughts and mind, Jesus was there in God's mind but was not sent until the fullness of time, Ephesians 1:10. I feel that is why Jesus said over and over it is not me but He who sent me.
I know we may differ, but I hope I am showing honestly my understanding.
See part 3.
God bless,
RLW
'arche' = 'something that was in the beginning: a first principle; a substance or primal element; an actuating principle (as a cause). If we take the first meaning of 'something having a beginning', then your suggestion might be valid. If, as 'an actuating principal - a causation', then we read the verse as, 'These things saith the Amen.the One to cause or initiate all of God's Creation'; that Jesus Himself wasn't God's first Creation, but the cause or reason for creation, i.e. the 'He Who initiated the beginning of creation', being the 'Reason for creation's beginning'.
'proto-tokos' = 'first-to bring forth'. Here, in Colossians 1:15,18, Jesus is seen as both the "firstborn of every creature and the firstborn from the dead". I see 'firstborn' here, not with a biological view, but in Christ's position; or else, He was certainly not the 'firstborn from the dead', as some have been brought to life from the dead prior to His Resurrection. So, it's best to read these verses as Jesus' station & rank that remains, as always, above every human being & all of creation, whether in their creation, birth or death. And as a side-note, we must be aware that the JW conveniently changes 'prototokos' to 'protokitises': from 'first to bring forth' to 'first to be created': which of course supports the idea that Jesus was a created Being.
If I may respond to your good questions brother Ronald.
a. Revelation 3:14, "These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God". I think you're stating that Jesus existed in Heaven (i.e. before the rest of God's creative Work done by Him) & then came to Earth as a babe. Apologies if I've misunderstood, as this understanding is at variance with the general belief by the non-trinitarian, that Jesus made His first appearance as a human & He had no existence before that.
True, there were two 'Adams': "The first man (Adam) is of the earth, earthy: the second man (Adam) is the Lord from heaven" ( 1 Corinthians 15:47). Is Paul suggesting that this Jesus, before all creation, was also the Lord from Heaven or mistaken, that He was a sub-Lord? Then the question, 'if Jesus was created by God before other of His created Works, what was His position in Heaven - was He God's Assistant in His Works or the Lord Who shared (partook) in God's Glory' ( John 17:5) - or maybe God created another god (but how would that work for God cannot be created, or else the created one can never be a supreme God?).
And Jesus must have been immortal as all heavenly beings are & all humans are (having an immortal spirit that can never die). So, maybe some clarification on how you understand this matter. Then back to Revelation 3:14: we can also bring in Colossians 1:15-17: Jesus, as One from God, stands then as He is now, the Image of the invisible God, Who not only created all things "by Him (Himself), but for Him (Himself)". If He then is "the firstborn of every creature" (v15) & "the firstborn from the dead" (v18), this might indicate that from examination of this word, 'firstborn' (prototokos), we can understand this "beginning of God's Creation & firstborn of every creature". And also in Revelation 3:14, the "beginning" of the creation of God: 'arche', from which we get words like 'arche-type'. Onto Page 2.
God the Father granted Christ all authority on heaven and earth which sets forth the ultimate example of how God worked to reward the perfect obedience of Christ. It also goes against Satan's offer to worship him to have such authority. ( Matthew 28:18; Matthew 4:9).
One may question how Christ; who Himself brought all of creation into existence would have such a destiny. ( Colossians 1:16-20). In that situation; one may say that He was the Person to do the work that the Father had planned; and His agent as it were was the Spirit of God (hovering over the waters as it states in Genesis 1:2).
We realize in this that no servant is greater than his master. ( John 15:20). We all are nothing without Him; yet He will likewise exalt the humble with positions to rule and reign with Christ in the Millennium. In some sense we can say that Christ emptied Himself so that He could be our High Priest suffering in all ways but without sin. ( Heb. 4:15). As the second Adam He was able to keep from the temptations of the devil to fall unlike Adam; as well as fulfilling the law perfectly which no man could do. ( 1 Cor. 15:45-47).
It is hard to get our mind around these facts; that He who created all things would start from conception as a helpless babe and end as a sheep to the slaughter ( Isaiah 53:7); the Lamb of God which will forever be ascribed to His Name. Of course all of us who are saved are adopted sons; ( Ephesians 1:5) part of the eternal lineage of the rightous (as contrasted with the earth dwellers in Revelation 11:10).
Christ is returning as conquering king. He alone trods the winepress ( Isaiah 63:3). He alone brings forth the TRUE one world government of peace and rules in righteousness; impartially judging as many verses in Isaiah testify. Some verses can be taken symbolically but to not take Revelation 19 literally or somehow think Christ already returned in some mystical way is heretical thinking (see 2 Tim. 2:18)
1 Timothy 3:16
Colossians 1:14-20
John 14:6
Isaiah 48:12, Revelation 22:13
My interpretation: Jesus is a big deal. Probably bigger than we realize and He loves us and died for each of us that we may choose to follow Him. God bless.
Part 9.
His Role
Jesus lived a sinless life by always choosing to exercise faith in God, never sinning, thus He did not deserve the curse of the law; yet took the curse upon himself and trade for humanity.
How many times have unbelievers and believers alike said, it is not fair that all of humanity would pay the price of eternal damnation because of one man's choice, Adam's decision.
Yet, the righteousness of God is seen in that Humanity is saved, with the penalty of sin paid for by one man's choice, Jesus decision to take our place.
There is both quality and justice in the trade; wherein God's righteousness is maintained, while at the same time displaying mercy and grace.
This is the reason for 1 Corinthians 15:22, which states: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
And 1 Corinthians 15:45, which states:
"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."
The only way that God could save fallen man was by Jesus becoming our kinsman Redeemer, by both purchasing us with His blood; while at the same time killing death for the sake of His family, "humanity" (And in the second coming destroying the enemies of his people).
Jesus stated in John 5:39:
"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
All of God's Word has one purpose, it is the glorification of God ("Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him." Isaiah 43:7), and His Son Jesus Christ ( Ephesians 1:20-22; Romans 11:36; Colossians 1:12-19).
It is Jesus that deserves preeminence in God's Word.
All of these Old Testament types and shadows ( Hebrews 8:5; 10:1; Colossians 2:17) and figures (Theologically referred to as "Expositional Constancy" meant as object lessons to paint the picture of the Messiah, so that He would be recognizable when He came.
See Pt 10
In answer to your question, I exist as a physical person, now saved & revived by the Blood of Christ & His Spirit, joined to the Body of Christ. Am I "the BODY of Christ?" NO. My understanding of the Scriptures is that the Body of Christ is the Church ( Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:18,24). So, I'm not the Body, Christ is; I am a part of that Body, the parts of which comprise the Church ( Romans 12:4,5; 1 Corinthians 12:12-14). There can only be one Body, or else, if each member is the Body of Christ, then Christ is no longer the Head of His Church but the Head of each person. And though 1 Corinthians 11:3 states, "...that the head of every man is Christ...", this verse speaks about the position, in the spiritual realm & of the Church presenting before God, of woman to the man, of man to Christ & of Christ to God.
So with Galatians 2:20, my understanding of "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me...", is that my life that I now live is not my own (my ownership), but belongs to Christ (His ownership) with Christ (by His Spirit) Who now lives in me. This is a personal relationship with the risen Christ, with Whom all others who completely identify with Him, also enjoy. Thus together we form His Church, which is His Body; so the individual can never be Christ's Body - only His Church can be, which is the collection of believers.
Is Christ God?
Ephesians 4:13 Till WE ALL COME into the UNITY of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a PERFECT MAN, unto the measure of the FULLNESS of Christ.
Colossians 2:9 For IN HIM dwelleth all the FULLNESS of the Godhead BODILY.
Colossians 1:27 .... this mystery ..... Christ IN YOU ......are you not the body of Christ .....
1 Corinthians 12:27 ... ye are the BODY of Christ ......
John 19:34 ..... Is it not written IN YOU LAW, I HAVE SAID, Ye are gods?
Why the KJV translators chose to use the term "Godhead," I do not know. Other English translations also use the term Godhead. Where I see the phrase "fullness of the Godhead" being applied to Jesus, this tells me that He is the fullness of God who came in the flesh (in bodily form).
Colossians 1:19 says that it pleased the Father that in Him (Jesus) should all fullness dwell. So, in Christ dwells all of the fullness of who God is. All of the fullness of "Deity" dwells in the body of Jesus. God in His fullness was in Christ.
In Hebrews 1:3, speaking of Jesus, it says "Who being the brightness of His glory." The word brightness is literally translated out beam. APAUGASMA is the Greek word. It means the out beam of His (God's) glory. It is a technical term describing God projecting Himself through the time/space factor, and taking up residency in the person of Christ, yet while still being God.
In the Greek language, there are two words that are used to describe Christ and the process of God coming into this world. So, if I combine APAUGASMA with EICON, which is the word image, it's the same terminology in the Greek language that is talking about the source of light and power remaining the same. Jesus Christ who is the image (EICON), of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.
What this is telling me is that Jesus Christ is the projection of God through the time space barrier and has taken up residency amongst us as a human being, while never being separate from the source. This is the function of God. Jesus Christ is the projection of the glory of God. He is the APAUGASMA of God's glory. He is God who has projected Himself through time and space and has residency amongst us.
Ronald, I know we are probably going to remain in disagreement on this one, although I do enjoy our discussion. Please know that I am not ignoring your questions. I will take them into consideration as I continue on in my studies.
God Bless!!!
And likewise with Colossians 3:10, the text doesn't allow for such an interpretation (i.e. of God creating Jesus). Paul is writing about two 'persons': the new man (i.e. the human being renewed by the Spirit), and of God (Who creates in His (God's) Image). So, it doesn't speak of Jesus, but of man who was once created in God's Image (Adam), & then after the fall, that image was marred, which necessitated a re-creation of that image in man. And to do this, man had to be changed inwardly (becoming a 'new man'), who now is being "renewed in knowledge" into the image of the One (God) Who created him (man). Yes, we do have 2 Corinthians 4:4 & Colossians 1:15 to support your use of 'image' as to Christ's 'creation', but we also have Genesis 1:27 & 1 Corinthians 11:7 to support man being made in God's Image. But to put Christ in Colossians 3:10 would violate the point of that verse which is directed to man's renewal.
Lastly, you wrote that you "don't really relish the idea of a big debate". That puzzled me since you initiated those questions for our responses. If we gave responses without 'debate/discussion', then the whole exercise would be entirely fruitless & pointless. So maybe you just wanted to share your understanding of those verses, but not willing to defend your beliefs; and these matters (of Christ's Divinity, eternal judgement, etc.) are vital to Christians & also in the preaching of the Gospel. Without these fundamentals, we have no Gospel - we have no message of liberty & hope to share with a lost world.
By whom (BY Christ) HE (God) made the worlds.
Angel, Christ's BODY is YOU.
Colossians 1:27 ..... this mystery ..... Christ in you ......
Galatians 2:20 I am CRUCIFIED with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet, NOT I, but Christ lives IN ME ....
Notice it's NO LONGER YOU that lives, you DIED on the cross, yoru NOW the BODY of Christ.
You were married to Christ at his resurrection, YOU and CHRIST became ONE.
John 17:22 And the glory that thou (God) gave me (Christ), I (Christ have given them (you Angel), that even as we (God and Christ) are ONE, that they (you Angel) are ONE in us.
God Bless YOU!
May I add a little bit of my understanding to your understanding, which are parallel to each other.
We are taught by God, the Spirit of truth and life that gives us existence.
God is Spirit, invisible, yet he wants to be known and seen, so he created a BODY, and he called that MAN Christ (Adam) the beginning of creation.
Through that MAN, Christ. he does ALL THE WORKS of the Almighty God, so truth and life CAN BE SEEN.
Christ can appear in a body of flesh, or he can be the SPIRIT of prophecy, he is omnipresent as is his Father.
We cannot exist without the SPIRIT of God, through Christ, giving us LIFE, just as Christ, a BODY, cannot exist without the Spirit of his Father giving him LIFE.
Christ commended HIS Spirit, the Spirit of HIS Father back to God who gave him LIFE, thus his body DIED on the cross, for the SALVATION of God's creation.
When God put his Spirit back into Christ he RESURRECTED all creation ANEW, the IMAGE of GOD, the body of Christ.
When we are MATURE in the TRUTH and LIFE of God, Christ will sent his angels to harvest us, in the twinkling of an eye we will PUT ON CHRIST, the express IMAGE and GLORY of GOD.
Christ told his disciples I go to prepare a place for you, that where I am, there will you be also.
At present Christ is indwelling creation revealing the KINGDOM of God to creation.
Isaiah 63:9 ...and the ANGEL of HIS presence SAVED them ....
Colossians 1:27 ... thist mystery .... CHRIST IN YOU ......
That where I am ye may be also.
Revelation 10:11 ... Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and TEACH ALL NATION, BAPTIZING in the NAME .....
His disciples never understood till pentecost that they would not be able to TEACH ALL NATION, until they had been harvested and become the express IMAGE and Glory of God, all by the WORKS of Christ RESURRECTION.
God Bless YOU!
Very few preach and teach the GOOD NEWS of the gospel of the Kingdom of God.
WE were RESURRECTED as joint heirs of Christ.
Colossians 1:27 ... this mystery .... CHRIST IN YOU .... the glory of God .....
God BLESS YOU!
Acts 17:29 states:
Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man.
God has many warnings in scripture regarding not making idols of created beings or heavenly objects such as the moon and stars. This verse shows how God cannot be reduced to a man made concept or picture.
Colossians 1:15 states: "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." This verse is discussing Christ who although He came in a man is part of the Godhead; so certainly we shouldn't have images of Him either; especially to be venerated or worshipped. As to whether; say a stained glass window is equally offensive we have to look to the heart of those who are attending a church service; as sadly some even with such an object as that will find some feature that seems to have some supernatural light in the image which is idolotry. The same could be said for the Apostles on such imagery; a Protestant wouldn't have any desire normally to make it an idol; but other denominations such as Greek Orthodox have statues of "saints" which clearly constitute worship that is against scripture.
John 1:18 states that no man has ever seen God but in Christ we in a sense see Him. His attributes including the Godhead are said to be clear from creation ( Romans 1:20). This was said to be known from the time of Creation according to the beginning of this verse. This shows that only later the nations departed from the knowledge that Adam and his immediate descendants would have instilled in them; there was deliberate rebellion against the Creator throughout the earth; both after the garden and after the flood with the tower of Babel and then God confusing the languages and scattering men throughout the earth (see Genesis 10:25 on likely splitting off of continents and dispersion of men).
There was a question posted few weeks, regarding The Gift of The Holy Spirit.
Part 1
-I believe Jesus Christ is the son of the Living God and He died on the Cross for my sins, and He was buried and rose on the third Day and He is sited at the right hand of the father, and He is our high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.
-Brethren bear this in mind that God is the same and He does not change.
As it is written Malachi 3:6, kjv
For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
-As God spoke by the prophets in time past in these days, these last hours ( John 1:18) He speaks to us by His beloved son in whom we have been qualified to be saints in the inheritance in the light by His blood at the cross By repentance. ( Colossians 1:12-14,KJV)
-And if you have repented at the cross and received salvation which is by grace and faith alone none of any of our works then we receive gifts according to His will which He gives for the edifying of the ministry (body of Christ For He is the Head of the Church Colossians 1:18, KJV.)
As it written in Ephesians 4:7-8, KJV
7.But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
-And in time past ( Hebrews 1:1, KJV) They the prophets healed the sick, raised the dead and provided provisions and all according to the will of God and not mans will.
-Therefore, we serve the same Living God who has been in the beginning and Does not Change and Was manifest unto us as a child, but He was there from the begging as a Son given unto us as a Son Mighty God, everlasting Father. (Isiah 6:9 KJV)
As it is written in 1 timothy 3:16, KJV.
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Part 2 next.
Part four,
2 Peter 2:20. They had the knowledge of the Lord and Savior; they were saved and had escaped the pollutions/sins of the world. Can we escape sin outside of Christ? They choose to go back to a life of habitual, intentional, and willful sin. And their punishment will be worse, Luke 12:47-48.
Galatians 6:9 This to me is obedience, It says unless we faint, to me that is to give up, quit, intentionally turn away, we reap life everlasting. Colossians 1:23 "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel". If we continue that is a choice, we must make that is not given that is our obedience.
Jude 1:21 We are to keep ourselves, the Holy Spirit helps us, but this is something we do and if we do, He will keep us from falling. 2 Peter 1:10 If we do, it is not done for us, we have been given but it is up to us to obey and do, if they have forgotten they had to know it to forget it. If We Do!!! we shall never fall. Hebrews 6:13-16 What Abraham did, in his faith, he waited for a long time he endured. He did not faint or grow weary or turn his back to God, the evidence of his faith, just like when he drew back the knife.
This is not about a Christian who is struggling and battling sin regardless of how long they struggle they are still in the race and if they repent and return in the light will be forgiven and in the grace of God. As David said restore unto me the joy of thy salvation, Psalms 51:12. We all are in a battle with our flesh and sin daily. We can lose the joy of salvation and if we come under repentance, we will still be in God's grace but without repentance, we will be cut off.
See part 5.
Part 6.
This section I will attempt to address those scriptures you presented suggesting one can lose his Salvation.
Hebrews 3:12-13.
Verse 12) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Well, if there is an evil heart of unbelief, and deceitfulness of sin. THEN YOU ARE NOT SAVED!
1 John 1:7.
Ronald, I don't grasp you here. This is not a verse saying you can lose Salvation.
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, if we are in the light we are saved. If we are not in the light, we are not saved.
2 Peter 2:20.
Look at 2 Peter 2:22. These are dogs, NOT SONS! This is the same group described in the previous verses!
Take it from 2 Peter 2:9-20 to get the context.
Galatians 6:9.
Christians will go before the judgement seat of Christ to give an account for the things done in the flesh.
We are to keep sowing and in due season we will reap. this is the fruit of their labor.
He that soweth to the Spirit, sows to the spirit by the power of the Holyspirit.
Paul has just asked the Galatian Christians to be convinced, once again, that trusting their flesh in this life will only lead to corruption. Reliance on our own power only leads to death. That is true whether we trust human effort to save us by following the rituals and sacraments of the law, or by following our own selfish, sinful desires.
Salvation comes only by "planting" the Spirit. Through faith in Christ for the forgiveness of our sin.
God gives to us His own Spirit. Only that Spirit will deliver eternal life in the end.
Colossians 1:23.
Verses 21-22 states we have been reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Jude 1:24. says "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
So, those who is moved away from the faith was never saved.
See Part 7.